Do Video Games Actually Help Your Mental Health?

Can video games become a bridge for people who might never seek traditional mental health support?

On Season 2, Episode 50 of Who’s Even Listening ? — overall episode 75 — Andrew talks with Nicole Finazzo, therapist and owner of Game Talk Therapy, LLC, a mental health practice centered around video game therapy, support groups, and coaching.

Nicole explains how video game therapy works, why gaming can help people feel more comfortable opening up, and what someone’s behavior inside a game may reveal about their emotions, relationships, and communication style.

They discuss the fear many parents have around video games, how families can better understand gaming, and why games are not always the real problem. Nicole also shares her journey as a therapist, the struggles behind building a private practice, the emotional weight carried by mental health professionals, and the question people often forget to ask: Who is checking on the therapists?

This conversation is about more than gaming. It is about finding new ways to reach people who may never feel comfortable seeking help through traditional therapy.

Connect with Nicole and Game Talk Therapy:
Website: www.gametalktherapy.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/gametalktherapyllc/
Email: info@gametalktherapy.com 

ELE — Everybody Love Everybody 💚

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:15

Hello and welcome back to our mental medicine channel. This is our weekly podcast. Who's even listening? Drops every Wednesday. Um and our main message, as always, is ELE. Everybody, love everybody. And let's try to do our part and make this world a better place and spread love, spread kindness, and forgiveness. We need a lot more in this world, and uh hopefully we're doing our part over here and hopefully influence others to want to do that as well. But we have a very special guest here for season two, episode number fifty, Nicole Fanazo. Thank you for taking the time out of your day and taking a drive to join us. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Yes, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

Absolutely. So before we get started, I always ask our guests the same thing. Just give us a little brief introduction of kind of who you are and what got you to where you're at today.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Okay, my name is Nicole. I am the owner of Game Talk Therapy. I have been a therapist for about six years. Okay. I think I earned, let's see. You know what? I describe myself as a COVID baby.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

So I got my license as soon as COVID hit. So I think I submitted my background check like, oh my gosh, maybe like March 2019.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

I think. And then the no 2020. March 2020, and then the very next week, the world shut down. And so my first therapy job was virtual.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Okay. And I've mostly been virtual since I did a short stint in person. Uh but I kept getting sick, really.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Really? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Yeah. And I guess because I had started off being virtual, it just felt right to stay virtual.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Fair enough. No, it's uh that makes sense. You're kind of in that transition period of that in a way, anyway. Um, you're right. I think a lot of even school shifted to that and everything during that time period. So no, that makes complete sense.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Um, that's that's I didn't even think about that. That's a very interesting part of it because um, yeah, everybody thinks therapy, and a lot of people don't really think of it um virtual that much. You know what I mean? That's that's not always the case for everybody because everybody thinks you get you hit the stereotypical, you know, in the room with someone. And uh No, that's a big part. No, that's a that's a very good point. And for you, I guess the first question, before we start on that, since you said that. Um for you, what would you say the pros and cons are in the it versus the in-person and in virtual? Where do you think the kind of pros and cons are for each of them? And is it different per person?

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Aaron Ross Powell It's a good question. I now am at a place in my company where I have people working for me. And one of the therapists that works for me, she's been a therapist for about 10 years, and she loves to be in person.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

She works in the substance use industry, or she did, and she said that part of being in person was she needed to literally be able to see the person's body. So, like if you've got track marks, if you have sores, welts, bruises, um, also domestic violence cases, things like that. So there are some things that are in person that you wouldn't see virtually. I mean, and some people get into body language and things like that, but I see the other side of it is you can get a lot by even what's in somebody's background on their video.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

Fair enough. I agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

So you you learn the ways, I think, and I get everything that I need virtual. And if you were to ask my clients, they love it. They say, I'm safe, I'm at home, I'm comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Convenient.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

I can wear whatever I want, I don't have to waste gas money, I don't have to wait in traffic, like it's just more convenient. And as a therapist, I have had some uncomfortable encounters with male clients back in the day.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Okay. I could see anything.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

And that the you know, being in person in a closed room with someone, not that that is really a huge issue. It's not like a common occurrence or anything, but when everyone is happening in their own homes, everyone is safe. Everyone is fully in control of their environments.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

No, that's a good point. No, that's a very good point. I think it is going to transition that way anyway, like you said, just for the convenience factor and modernization of things, but it makes complete sense. But like I always say there is probably some still those people that do seek that one-on-one, I'm sure that don't, you know, obviously, especially older people, I'm sure that aren't used to the because the virtue is hard to understand, too, for a while. If you've got just gotten into it, um, you know, doing Zoom for the first time or something is a little daunting for people.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

So and little kids too. I mean, there there are certain cases with younger kids where if they're really hyper and they have a hard time focusing. I mean, the kids who maybe struggled with doing online school, they're not always the greatest candidates for online.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

Yeah, it's different for each person. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Now that's what I wanted to bring up too. Like you said, I think it's just it's used right as long as the person is happy with what they're getting, because I think that's the key, is just each person needs to look at it, what's best for them.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

But uh that's really all it comes down to. But no, I do I want to start here too, because I'm very curious about the video game therapy. So like can you kind of like break that down for somebody new that's listening that that doesn't really understand that or really just, you know, because I kind of it's I feel like me look at I'm like thinking, okay, how do we get a how does that work? You know what I mean? Just can you kind of break it down to simple terms for people? Like how to how do you really go about that and how does that work?

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Yeah. So I started using video games within therapy prior to starting my own company when I was working for the company before.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

And it felt wrong to include video games in sessions.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Because it wasn't really being done. My supervisors never did that. If you're not a gamer, you don't get it. It seems like it could be a distraction. So I started to work it in because I had, you know, I mentioned kids who have a hard time focusing. Well, part of my intervention was for the kids who are having a hard time engaging in sessions. We started including games. And I think it's it's it's been so long now, it's hard to remember, but I think they asked. They're like, Can we play Roblox? Or maybe they were playing a game when they got onto session, and I was like, hey, what you know, what are you doing? It's time to talk, you know, put that away. And they're like, Well, can't you just play with me? And I was like, Okay. And so we played, uh, it was Roblox.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

And so I made a quick little character and hopped in the game with them. And so we would be in the game running around doing stuff, and then we were on telehealth, so our faces were still there and we're still talking, but we were also in the game at the same time. So fast forward to my company now. I mean, it's all ages, it benefits everybody.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

And to keep it simple, like technical-wise, it's we get on a telehealth call. I use psychology today. The girls who work for me use Zoom or Sessions Health or whatever. You're on you're on telehealth, and then you meet up in whatever game you want to play. And I have so I'm on PC, I have a Steam account, I have a Discord, I have all of that. And I went ahead and made new accounts for everything.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

So I had personal accounts, but now there's game talk this, game talk that.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

I love it. I love it. No, but that's a smart way to connect. Like, yeah, no, I mean, that makes complete sense to me. Like, we gotta find ways to break that wall and connect with kids and you know, uh anybody in general. But like that is that makes complete sense to me. Um, I think that's smart as hell. I do, I truly do. I think it's genius. Um I think that's just a way of kind of breaching that wall and where you can almost get kids to that was the other question I have in here too, is when you have those sessions, do you get kind of kids to almost I feel like answer questions for you without even realizing it because they're so you know, you're almost focused in some other direction where you can kind of almost let something else out too. So I do want to bring that aspect up too.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Yeah, so it's like how is the game used? And it's interesting. I've been I uh I got interviewed by some research students, young people in their master's or bachelor's programs, they hit me up to do research. And the conversation was is it an intervention or is it an environmental thing? And I think it's somewhere in the middle, and of course it depends, every case is different, but kind of what you said. So what I have found, and I'm not just assuming this, like I've been told this multiple times from parents of children I see as well as from teenagers I have, and then even adults. So having the gaming included meeting gamers where they are, one of my taglines there.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

I like it. Yeah, that's right. I like it. I like it.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Is that uh parents will say, yeah, this is amazing. Like we've tried to we've tried this many therapists before, and they always thought it was stupid or they didn't want to go because it was boring, they didn't want to do anything, it was awkward.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

And then with um some of the adults I have, adult men too in particular, they have said things like, Yeah, I would have never tried therapy if I couldn't have Do it like this.

SPEAKER_03 9:55

Yeah, do it like this way. I agree with that. I think it's a way of getting people in the door. Um, even if they're not like fully committed at a time, it's a way to get them in and kind of keep them staying in. And I I think that's a genius way of doing it. Um to get people help that they need without even really making them feel like they're do going out of their way to get it.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

Which is I think the other part of it too goes back to what we were talking about with the convenience factor. And uh, you know, when you feel like you got to go out of your way, like and you can kind of make a schedule for it, but when you can kind of just all right, it's already part of my routine, already game anyway.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Another tagline is if you have time to game, you have time for therapy.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Wherever the camera is, I'm looking at it.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

That's right, it's got both. Yeah, they have to be able to do it. If you got time to game, you got time for therapy. You can do both. Yeah. No, I love it. I think I I'm huge into it. I think it's awesome. I was really excited to have you on. Um so this is the other thing I would say too, for like you said it's you play Roblox. Like, so when you have a session with a kid or something, is it just you just kind of ask them, or do you have a certain few games that you go through, or is it like just really up to the paint and whatever they want, kind of thing, and you you're just gonna go with it.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Good question. So there are therapists out there who are in the gaming realm. I'm not the only one doing it now. Yeah. Or was, not trying to sound funny. Um so, but there are therapists who will limit it. I think there's even some other companies who are doing something similar, and they what I see is it's typically limited to Minecraft, Stardew Valley, Animal Crossing.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I would assume that's what I was, that was my question. I was kind of thinking it would be like more mind-tricking games than like Call of Duty or something, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

They do, but that's not what I do. So I do run Call of Duty, Apex, Marvel Rivals, Forza, that's what I was getting at. Anything, anything. Because my thing is, as long as you can talk and maintain conversation, we can play whatever game you want. Because a lot of us, myself included, I grew up in COD lobbies. I grew up talking to strangers on the internet for hours at a time while playing at the same time. And that's kind of the piece too that comes into it. Like, you know, I have parents who have a hard time understanding, or I network with other therapists and they're like, Well, how? Isn't it a distraction? It's like, well, if if you're a gamer, you've you've already been doing this. I'm just giving you an elevated experience now. Now, instead of just you know, talking with your friends and making jokes and calling each other names or whatever you're doing, it's more now.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

And going back to the intervention versus environment, you know, yes, it's a shared environment which increases bonding. It really helps with rapport. Like, not that I not that I personally have had issues bonding with clients before, but it just is a natural enhancer. If you get in there and you're using teamwork and communication, and if you get to win, who doesn't love to win? I'm no expert by any means, but when you meet with someone and you play with them over time, you guys are just naturally gonna do better as a team. Correct. So environmentally with the relationship and the comfort, it's a beautiful thing. People are more likely to open up once they're more comfortable. And then in terms of an intervention, you know, thinking of kids who let's say have ADHD or some other focus and attention thing, you can see how they respond. You can observe behaviors. Are they constantly trying to change games and Roblox? Are they only wanting to play five minutes of one game and then go to another, go to another, go to another? Are we having fun and then something happens and they get really, really mad and they want to like rage quit or like yell at the screen? So you can work with it there. And then another angle is people who have suffered a lot of trauma. So PTSD of any variety, trauma of any variety. If you occupy what I like to call the lizard brain, okay, if you occupy that, the emotional reactions that come up when you're talking about trauma, they almost get occupied by the game. That that buzzing part of your brain, same thing with people with anxiety, just that buzzing nervousness, the fear, it gets almost regulated into the game, and then I get to the core of it. It just comes out. No, that makes sense to me.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

No, that makes sense to me. So it's like you said, you're doing the same thing like you would in person, just through a different aspect and different lenses, really. Um, that makes complete sense to me. Um I think we all have tales, whether it's in a game or in what uh real life and not. We all have ways of uh telling kind of what we're dealing with. Um that's just how we get it out. But no, I I completely agree. And only other thing I would say for you, other question I had too in that realm was when you I know you said you got into virtual right away, but did you have the idea of game talk right when you started into therapy, or did that come across later?

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Oh my gosh, no. So game talk therapy was born at 4 a.m. on a random.

SPEAKER_03 15:12

Okay, that's what I meant to ask you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, so uh I was living alone at the time. I think it was just in the middle of the week. Maybe it was a weekend. I'd like to hope it was a weekend that I wasn't staying up till 4 a.m.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

on a weeknight.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

But I did, and I was playing a game called Apex Legends.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

Okay, yeah, I do know that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

And I was when you play um, you know, with random people, you get cycled in and out of lobbies constantly. And I never announce that I'm a therapist. Never smart. You don't move ever.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

You never lead with that back when I was single. You don't even say that when you're dating. Like you literally never say you're a therapist. Very good point. You just don't do it.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Very good point. So uh all night though, I mean, I don't have to say, I don't have to announce that I'm a therapist for people to, I guess. I don't know if I have a certain vibe, I don't know if it's my voice, I don't know what it is, I don't like to think about it too hard. But people all night were just telling me their whole life story. Like just gabbing, gabbing, gabbing, gabbing. And so 4 a.m., I finally get in bed and I'm laying there and I'm like, ugh.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

Just unloaded on, yeah. Good lord.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

I should be paid. I should be getting paid for this. And I was like, wait a minute. I can get paid for this. Damn right.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

I'm a licensed therapist. What am I doing? And literally, game talk therapy was born. How about that?

SPEAKER_03 16:42

Okay, that's cool. That's cool. No, that's cool. I'm glad you did it. I think it's super cool. And I I'm I think you can help a lot of people with that and connect with people that normally this is my biggest thing about it, too, and I'm sure you already know this, is that you can get people in the door that normally wouldn't. And that is the key, because you're hitting a market that normally regular therapy is completely missing and well completely going right over. So I think it's a genius. Um I'm super happy that you're doing it. Thank you so much. Of course. Thank you for doing it. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

And they'll and they tell me that. It's like it's not a guess. Like it's the truth. They straight up say I would not have come here if I could not play it.

SPEAKER_03 17:16

It's simple, it makes sense to me. It truly does. Uh it truly does to me. Um, a question I want to dig dig into because you did have this in your notes that I really liked. Everybody always comes to therapists for help. Yeah. Obviously, but nobody really talks about the therapist and what they're dealing with. So can you maybe talk on that aspect and be a little open of kind of you know what a therapist deals with and you know, mentally the struggle that you guys have to deal with that maybe you know nobody really talks about that much?

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Sure. Um I think it's really hard at the beginning. I think now I'm at a place and probably owning my own business helps, but I'm now at a place where I'm I'm pretty good, got a good handle on it, things roll off. I can't speak for every therapist, but I do know at the beginning it was hard. There was a lot of imposter syndrome. And then even outside of what a therapist emotionally goes through, I don't know if a lot of people know this, but you have to pretty much be jobless for about a year when you're doing your internship in practicum because you have to get like a thousand hours or more or something. I don't remember the numbers right now, so nobody come at it. No, you're good, but it's you had to work full-time and not get get compensated, yeah. And not have and for nothing.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Now, me, I was lucky that I worked at a hotel. That's that was my other world. I worked in the hotel industry for about 10 years on and off. I worked for Hilton. Yep. And so, luckily being in that industry, a hotel is open 24-7.

SPEAKER_03 18:56

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

So there was a there was a long while where I would work therapy stuff during the day or in the evening, and then I would work overnight because I gotta do needed to make money. And luckily I had parents who were very supportive, and my mom said, you know, if you're in school, you don't have to pay rent.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

So Dang right. I didn't take it up on the phone.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

I had some parents who were easy on me, but there are people who don't have that luxury. And so if you don't have parents or a spouse or I don't even know what to help you, there's no help. It's really, really hard to get into this industry.

SPEAKER_03 19:33

I see. That makes sense. Like you said, you almost have to have a year, in a sense, no salary and try to Yeah, you gotta have a cushion for sure, in a sense. Yeah. No, that makes that makes a lot of sense. That that is sad though. That is, I mean, it's not sad because I know it makes sense why you should you should have I agree with the concept of the You need to get the hour.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Get the concept.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

But yeah, they need to figure out a better way to get make that concept a little more easy.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Some places it it depends. The the kind of facility that I worked at before Game Talk, it was called an OMHC. And essentially, again, don't come at me, people, because I'm not gonna define this right.

SPEAKER_03 20:07

But pretty much You're all good.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Pretty much what it means is it's a Medicaid-based practice.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

And when you have access to grants and state funding and things like that, I know the place that I used to work for, they are now offering stipends to interns, which is like really awesome. But if you're a small practice, you don't have the funds to do that.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

No, it makes complete sense. So it's like you said, it's kind of situational depending on where you're, I guess, located in that too. Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense. But no, yeah, okay, all right. No, I'm glad you brought that up though. That's a that's a big, you know, real thing that nobody really I haven't yeah, I didn't know that either until you said that about that. You have going into that to be able to get into that practice that you had to go through that.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

That's quite a lot of stuff for free. And I would like to say that when you are in your master's program, at least not mine and all of the therapists that I talk to, they don't teach you how to bill insurance. They don't teach you how to file claims, they don't teach you how to write notes, they don't tell you where you would go to even get credentialed with anything. They don't teach you about the payment platforms if you want to do private practice. Like, you're really not taught any of the business end or any of the administrative end, which I love being a therapist. I freaking hate notes. That is the worst part about it, and I'm open with it. I tell my clients all the time. I was like, I love to see you. I hate the note I have to write about you when I'm done. Like that's a whole other job, too. And I don't think people realize that. That's it. There are some therapists who are really good about maybe like writing a note in the session, but then you're like writing the note and not kind of shift focused on them. So I don't really believe in that.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

That's fair. I agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

But imagine this, you know, you if you work an eight hour day seeing clients, and then now at the end of your day, you need to go back and you have to write notes on all of them. That's unpaid. You don't get paid for that. So that's a struggle I think that Not a lot of people know too. No, I think if you don't write a note to submit the claim, you don't get paid.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Yeah. No, that's yeah, 100%. I think it goes back to even what we always talk about in the podcast about even just simple uh school. You know, sometimes we didn't get taught how to write a check check or anything going out of school. I don't even think they teach cursive action. I mean it's crazy, yeah. So I mean some of it's yeah, you can't even sign your name. I mean it's it's insane. So like it's yeah, 100%. That goes down to everything, sadly. But um No, so yeah, I I'm glad you because I just feel like er everybody always comes to therapists for help, and it's like nobody ever really asked them how they're doing. And that's the one thing I wanted to get you, you know, talk to you about. It's so true. It's so true. But um I wanted to ask you this too. With kids growing up in digital worlds now, do therapists have to kind of meet them instead of expecting them to communicate in the old school way? And I know that's we just kind of talked about that through your game's philosophy, but especially for new kids, like uh other than gaming too, like how do you, even if you had an in-person, um say without the game involved, how do you kind of try to interact with the new kids and get them to kind of open up and share?

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Hmm. Golly.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

If you don't if you don't want to answer it on the spot, you're good. I don't want to mess you up. I was just curious.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

No, you're not messing me up. So I think I've always been fun. No, I don't know. I so even before using video games, being silly, you know, using other play therapy techniques or play therapy adjacent techniques, like even my virtual background, I have it filled with um, like I have a stuffed Pikachu, I have an axolotl, I have a Finch penguin, I have little Chester Cheeto Man. Dang right, I think you answered the little mushrooms. Like I I think I've always been fun. I'd like to think I've always been fun, even without the game. So really just kind of being silly.

SPEAKER_03 24:03

Sorry for the fly in front of you. I'm very sorry. We're all over here. Yeah, I've got the field behind us as we're off. Um extra protein. Just extra protein. Yeah, we're just gonna skill it out here and get them all cooking. Yeah, that's right. It's fine. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Um I don't know. I think my personality has always been fun. Like I like to make jokes. I've never tried to be the therapist that was, hmm.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Yeah.

unknown 24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Tell me. I agree. I don't think that approach helps so much anymore. No, I think that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_03 24:29

I agree. I agree. There's and there's time and place for everything. Like you said, back, you know, there's I'm not saying some things don't work and some people need that, you know, harder structure than others too. You know, I'm not saying that. But yeah, I agree with you. I think nowadays it's better to be a little more free-spirited and uh open to a little different philosophies for sure.

unknown 24:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

We're also, and that's the problem with this world, we're also closed-minded, we can just be more open-minded to things and try different things in different ways and have different perspectives and views on things, uh, be a whole different world. Yeah. Be a whole different world.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

But um so I wanted to ask you this too. So, like, have you met anybody? I know you were kind of talking about how a lot of people were saying uh how is it is it used as a distraction kind of for the video games? Have you really met anybody that really has like kind of like pushed against what you're doing in a sense? I hope not, but I'm just curious. I know, like you said, I'm sure that that's the only side I could see of like somebody saying, hey, I could how does somebody get anything out of that if they're playing video games? Right. You know, like from that aspect, like what would you say to that?

SPEAKER_01 25:26

I I think because I have fully made a brand in a presence, and who knows if anyone looks at my website, but I got good FAQs, I think.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

I had to tell them about it.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

You'll always do it so leave a comment if my FAQs suck. Like I'd love to know myself.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

I love the energy. God bless. I love your energy.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Um, so really I I I really can't even remember any pushback now. Maybe back when I was working for my past company where it wasn't all branded out that way. But really now it's oh my gosh, this is such a good idea. Oh my gosh, like my kid would love this. Oh my gosh, my husband would love this. Oh my gosh, I would love this. So it's really bringing people who wouldn't do therapy or they are resistant to therapy, or they've tried and tried. Like, I've talked to so many moms of teenage boys. Yes. Shout out because I love working with my teenagers.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

So many who have been like, I've just been wanting to give up. Like, I've tried. He just sits there, he doesn't say anything. And they like kind of build him up to be this character and almost in my head. And then after one or two sessions, like we're good. Like, we're gaming, we're having a great time. Like the way that mom was describing the kid, like, I don't know who that kid is. I've never seen that kid. He's always been open with me, and we've always been having fun.

SPEAKER_03 26:51

No, that's all no, that's awesome. That's huge, man. That's and I think it just takes like goes back to what you were saying with being comfortable. You know what I mean? Once you get comfortable and like you, you I think kind of create that instantly with that game culture. You know what I mean? If it's even harder to create a comfortable room when they're just walking in and you're like you said, you're in an uncertain place. Yeah. Makes even more sense to me when you can get comfortable in your own place playing with your therapy. I mean, you can't help but almost be open and feel like you're kind of one of the guys in a sense if you're one of the people who are sure. So it kind of makes sense. Uh it's that approach makes complete sense to me, and I love it. Yeah. Absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

And gamers have usually gamers have their own setup anyway.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Mm-hmm. Yeah, true. So true.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

I was already I was already in the virtual world, and then this was an easy, such an easy transition. You know, I'm on my PC already, I got my multiple screens, I got my cool glowy lights, and so do they.

SPEAKER_03 27:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

And so we just get connected.

SPEAKER_03 27:43

No, no, it's just that easy. No, that's that's that's how it's supposed to be, in my opinion. I think that's the point of you know, what we're missing with the therapy is that connection that you're creating, is that we're like you said, it goes back to what you were saying with this. We're supposed to meet them where they are. You know what I mean? That's the whole point, not have them come to us. And I think that's the part we were missing. Yeah. But uh no, I'm I'm so happy to just hear that you're doing stuff like that and uh around here, and that's just I think it's huge. And I I I think a lot of kids are gonna be completely helped with that, and uh, it makes me very happy. Thank you. Because I know as a kid, I wasn't necessarily gambling, I was ADHD bad and stuff like that. But like something like that even just would have got me in the door without you know what I mean? Like that's I can just see that as a room for kids to where if they're uncertain or would have maybe gone for help but didn't it's like you say, it goes back to the oh it's boring, I'm not going to sit there. But yeah, you know, you when you g kind of switch the the mindset to it, it makes it a lot different.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Yeah, they'll just be like, just just play with her, just play with her, give her a chance to play any game you want. Go play Fortnite. And like I'm not I'm I'm no expert, but I'm not bad either. I've been playing games since I was two years old. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

So you can hang, you can hang. Thank you. Yes, I can hang.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

So when the kids see that, and I know we keep saying kids, but this is adults too. I see everyone. I think the oldest, I think the oldest client I have is in their 50s.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

I believe it. I mean, yeah, games, you shoot, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Yeah, so it's everybody. And even with I I would say if I look at my caseload, it might be 50-50 or 60-40 of who plays games with me almost every session versus who doesn't.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

Interesting. Okay, that's uh that's a very good point.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

So not everyone is gaming with me, but they say, Yeah, I just thought it was really cool. Yeah, I just wanted to work with like a fellow nerd who would just get me. Or I just thought it was really cool. So I wanted to see like who was, you know, behind the curtain kind of thing. And so I have people that come to me and they don't game or they game a little in their free time, or they used to, but they just like the idea of it.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

Fair enough. And they didn't have to game per se either. But okay, that's a good point. I'm glad you brought that up. That's just not just yeah, to open the door just to play games. Yeah, 100%. You still might get somebody to secure. Yeah, I agree with that. That's that's glad you see that.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

And let me say this too, while we're here. So, not all of my clients do I play with. Like there are some clients who really like single player games.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

Oh, okay. Yeah, like a campaign.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Okay, let's think, let's think Skyrim, the Witcher. Okay. You know, I don't know, whatever. Single player games.

SPEAKER_03 30:13

Yeah, like the role-playing ones, kinda, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Yeah, or they're in a story. So, or maybe it is a multiplayer game, but maybe it's their Minecraft world that they have had for so many years, and everything is perfectly where it belongs. And they don't want you to move a blog. Anyone to mess anything up.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

I get that, fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Right? So, what we will do is we'll still be in our telehealth window, like I said, through Psychology Today or Zoom or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 30:41

Whichever you're using.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

And then I mentioned that I have my company Discord.

unknown 30:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

And so they will share their game through Discord so I can watch them play and then we can still talk. And so that way I'm still involved, I'm still in the world, I can still see what they're reacting to or what they're doing, but I'm not actually playing with them. So I try to give people a lot of options, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Like it's not just one way. No, I like that. It's where we can kind of accommodate whatever you're trying to try to work with.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

No, yeah. If you're willing to come, we're gonna figure it out. That's what I think. That's it. Sounds like what's your kind of mission is to kind of whatever you want, we're going from one way to make it work.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

I buy any game on the spot. Like I make sure that my system is my PC is strong enough, internet, best internet. I'm about to say nowadays, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_03 31:35

That's it, it ain't cheap nowadays. You ain't kidding.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Yeah, so I mean, most of my clients, we decide we go through phases. Typically, how it goes is we go through phases. Like we'll get on a game. So, for example, I have one client who I've been seeing on and off for a couple years. He and I are on a Dead Island 2.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

Oh, is that the zombie games? I haven't played that in a while. I remember I do remember that one. I do remember that one. I I did play that one.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

So he and I just decided. We we saw this there was a really great Steam sale that was happening, and we're like, let's just, we're kind of bored. Why don't we just look through some games? Let's shop around and we saw a game, we're like, zombies, you want to stomp on some zombies together? We're like, hell yeah. Dang it. So we both bought the game to both start together.

SPEAKER_03 32:16

I see.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

And we made the agreement like we're not gonna play this outside of session, like we're only gonna do it together, so we're going through the campaign together.

SPEAKER_03 32:25

Wow, that's awesome! That's super cool, man. That's a dope experience for kids. That's super cool. I'm so glad you're doing that. I think that's so awesome. I I truly do. That's hilarious. No, but it's I even think it's even cooler that you're even willing to whatever you want to play, we're gonna figure it out, too. That's that's awesome. That's awesome. I love that experience.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

I have a new client who just started with me last week, teenage boy, and he told his mom, I don't think she really games like that. Like, she don't, she don't game, like she's gonna suck. And the mom's like, no, literally, like, this is what she does. And so he plays Rainbow Six Siege.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

Oh, that yeah, I I haven't played about her. I heard it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

I heard it's very I haven't played it either, but I as soon as mom told me and I met the kid and he told me that's the game that we're gonna play, I was like, okay, bet. And so I'm I bought it, I downloaded it, and before I see him next, and I think that'll be the first time he and I are playing games. Before I see him, I'm gonna make sure it's downloaded, I'm gonna boot it, I'm gonna run it, I'm gonna practice it a little bit, and then we'll be good to go. That's awesome. The benefit of having a therapy company where video games is your niche is the write-offs and the deductions.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

So any game, keyboard, controller, console, PC, part, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

Dang right.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

So write that off at the end of the year. That's sweet.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

No, that is sweet. That is sweet. You can't beat that. Yeah, you ain't kidding.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

So if you have a hobby that you love, find a way to make a business out of it because then you can write shit off.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

That's very true. That's very true. Well said. Well said, good advice there. Good advice there.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

That's what piece of advice anyone could take today.

SPEAKER_03 34:03

100%. And the only other thing I did want to ask you about the video, do you ever have people want to play VR?

unknown 34:09

Ugh.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

Because I know that that's a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Dude, I'm too old and fat for this.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

I was just curious. I was curious that that was an advantage. I had to bring that up.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Yeah, I've had I've had some kids play VR, and holy shit, dude. Like when Gorilla Tag came out, I was sweating like a pig.

SPEAKER_03 34:22

Yeah, that it isn't dead, isn't it? More than people think. It is. It is.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Right, and then playing Batman, I'm like, oh, I like fighting people. So do I have a VR headset? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Do I use it now? No. Did I try? Yes. Maybe I didn't find the right games, but I can't be running around getting sweaty and punching holes in my office walls. That's fair. I have it. Maybe I'll come back to it.

SPEAKER_03 34:50

We're open to it.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

I always had the idea of having a virtual office. Like a cool virtual office, and then I can meet people and we're both in the virtual world. That is like a loose fantasy I have.

SPEAKER_03 35:05

But I do like that.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

I'm too old, man.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

No, that's fair. I was I didn't I had to ask you. I knew that's big. I will say, I I I have a detached retina on my right eye, so like playing those are real hard for me sometimes because it just messes me up. But the only time that I have played one that I really like is because you don't have to do much. And you'd probably like is the mini golf. The mini golf's fun. Because you do, I think you'd actually like that one because you're not, you know what I mean? It's just yes, and it's kind of fun. That one's cool. I recommend that one. That one I actually like, and I just I feel you on the craziness. Try the mini golf. I think you might like the mini golf. I think you might like the mini golf. I can do that. But um, I did want to ask you this too. So, for someone that thinks therapy isn't for them, what would you kind of say to them right now to get them trying to, you know, trying to get help or ask for help? And so what would you kind of your employee or kind of reach out to them to kind of like get get somebody to really get out there and get something that they need? Because I feel like a lot of people just don't know how to make that next step.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

There are so many different kinds of therapists. And I think a lot of people, it's like dating. Oh, it's honestly like dating. That's a good point, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

So the first one you meet might not be the right fit. And I think people need to break out of the mindset that, like, if you meet with this therapist and you do an intake with them, that you have to stay with them for a while. Now, should you probably give it a couple chances? For sure.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

For more than one or two, I would agree. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

But do the work before you even show up. So really do your research. So, like, there are so many websites now, so many. Psychology today is the one that's been well known for a while, but it's a catalog of therapists, and there's filters, and you can go through and select do you want male, female, young, old, black, white, purple? Like, what do you want? Like, there's there's so many, you know, what are your problem areas? So also, the I'm sure there's gonna be therapists out there who hate to hear me talk about this, but there's a lot of uh venture capitalist companies now that came up, especially during COVID. So Grow Therapy, Rula, Headway, Tava Health, Sondermine, BetterHelp, like I could just keep going. Fair enough. You know, they're are they great for like small businesses? No. But for the people, yeah, so many of them, and then you have all those filter options. So you really just need to take time to look at people's profiles, don't just go somewhere and let someone randomly get assigned to you. I mean, that can work. That can work, it can definitely work. There's a chance.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

There's a chance.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

But if you're but if you're one of those people who are hesitant and don't think that it's gonna be good, well, it's not gonna be good if it's not a good fit. So do some work. You can think it through.

SPEAKER_03 38:01

That's a very good point, though, because like you said, even when even like when I started going, like what 15, 20 years ago when I first was a kid, it was you kind of I don't think you really had that option. Yeah. It was like, yeah, you kind of just you kind of did just kind of go to a place and kind of get what you got almost. And you might have had an option within that place, but you know, it wasn't much. But like you said, it is nice to at least have that uh b ability to like, okay, look, this is what's going on. How do I find somebody that might fit with me? And even to have that, I think to even look through and see, almost I think it's just almost one of those things where you almost have to see it in front of you to even like to even think it's kind of possible for us. Like to make a phone call and just walk in a place is hard for people. But I feel like to look at online and see, okay, this is okay, I can see this person, what he looks like. Yeah, you know, this is who it is, you know, like it I feel like it can almost even just give you a little more comfortability in a sense, yeah, just from that little aspect uh that you gain from it.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

So I mean, I even remember I haven't myself, I haven't tr done therapy since my bachelor's degree, and I tried it when I was younger. I think my first personal therapy experience was when my parents got divorced and I hated it. My parents forced me to do it. I never wanted it. I tried to go back when I was in my bachelor's program, gave it a short stint, hated it. So, like, I'm kind of a therapist who hated therapy. So I think that's a good thing. That's a good thing. So I think I learned about all the things I really didn't like, and then I'm trying to do the opposite.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

I love that. I think that's a honestly a huge reason of why you're so different and why you're getting people in the door that normally wouldn't is because of that reason. And so that's that's awesome. I think that's that's a huge part of what why you're uh doing being so good at what you're doing, honestly, because you already have that perspective of where you were like, Oh, I didn't like this, but how can I figure out a way to almost get myself in the door? You know, I mean that's a kind of you were almost battling your own self with that. So that's cool, that's super cool. Um, and the only other thing I wanted to ask you, is there anything that we didn't bring up or anything that you want to say that I that we didn't bring up yet?

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:00

Absolutely what you got.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

Okay. So um when my company first started, I did a news interview. I got interviewed by a news person. She was a very lovely lady. She came to my house, she got to check out my office, and I was so new that oh my gosh, looking back, that was the most embarrassing interview ever.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Really?

SPEAKER_01 40:24

I did not know what the hell I was talking about.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

I mean, I was just trying my best.

SPEAKER_03 40:28

Oh, we have to check that out.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

So no, no, no, don't do it, no, don't do it.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Um, but what's really cool is my company is a lot different than it was back then when I first started. So it used to be just me. Yeah, and now I have three people working for me. I'm about to have an intern in August, and then I'm trying to hire one more person as well. And we don't just offer therapy anymore, so we now have support groups and we have coaching options as well.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

I have not been putting a lot of effort into the coaching, not much to say there.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

Fair enough. Coaching it real.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Coaching is a good option for people who want stuff off the record. So, first responders or military police, pilots, basically people who don't want a mental health diagnosis following them because if you are billing insurance, you have to diagnose someone. It is not a choice, like you literally have to. And there are some jobs where having a diagnosis could fuck up their whole life.

SPEAKER_03 41:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

So I have this it's the labeling of it in a sense.

SPEAKER_03 41:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

So coaching essentially is ripping back all of the admins, so there's no diagnoses, no intakes, no standardized assessments, there's nothing. It's just talking and then it stays there. I don't have to go do notes about it, it just stays between us, which which is good, but like the whatever.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

No, fair enough. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

Coaching is there. I'm not doing a whole lot with it, but the support groups, that is where we are having so much fun. So right now, I think we have five support groups running.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Let me see. I have two men's groups, a preteen, teen, and a women's group just started. Yep, that's fine.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

Awesome. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

So the way that those work, I only charge 20 bucks to come. It's a weekly meeting 20 bucks. I don't run it, my counselor aide runs it, but I design the program that he carries out in those sessions.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

So I will have a consultation with the group members, find out what it is they need. So, for example, the men's group was, I think, what really broke through, well, the preteens and the men's group. Those were the ones that were really like flagship and like I learned a lot from. And so with the men's group, it started because I kept hearing all of my clients talking about how they didn't have friends, or how once you become an adult, it's way harder to make friends, to make new friends. It's hard to maintain the friendships that you already have. You know, as soon as someone gets married, they're gone. As soon as someone has a kid, they're gone. Or your work schedules don't align, or so-and-so moved. So their their friend groups were falling apart. And so, like, male loneliness was a theme that was coming out for all of my guys.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

I know.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

And I was like, man, I really wish you could meet him and he could meet you. And so I was like, Well, why not? And so Yeah. Uh a social aspect that is consistent, which benefits not just those men, but all those other groups that I mentioned. Having consistent interactions with people and it being a guaranteed safe space. We know how wild the internet is. I mentioned I mentioned growing up in COD lobbies. COD lobbies are not for everyone, and they can be really rough. You'll learn some words you've never learned. You've never heard of it. I've never thought you.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

Like what century are we in?

SPEAKER_01 44:33

I'm not sure. So yeah. And I mean, even like Marvel Rivals, even the chat, like you don't even have to be on voice, but just even the chat can be nasty and like bullies, and it's not fun. So I wanted to create just a safe corner of the internet that's fun. And then because it's through my company, you know, it has that mental health aspect to it. So discussion questions or lesson plans. The preteen group was pretty much a bunch of 10, 11-year-old boys who were hyperactive, or maybe they were having a hard time in school, maybe issues with listening. And it turned into a elementary school to middle school transfer. Like they all met in fifth grade, and then the lessons that we made were to help prepare them to go into sixth grade. Um I see. So the support groups, I didn't decide to divide them by gender, but just as it was going, it just happened that way. So I have men's groups, women's groups, I do have queer spaces as well, and I'm working on getting more of those too. So really age is what we divided by as well. So the two men's groups, one of them is 18 plus, they play Forza Horizon 9. The other one is 25 plus, they play Marvel Rivals. The preteens, that's like 10 to 12. I have a boy group. I'd love to get a girl group started. They play Roblox. Oh, okay. The queer space that I have, they also play Roblox. They're high school aged. So that's awesome. Uh the women's group, that's the newest one. I can't forget them. Can't we?

SPEAKER_03 46:24

That's right. That's right. Ladies first. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

They are a neurodivergent group. So autism, ADHD, and they really wanted a space where they could practice their social skills. And this one, this is the first one where it's not just gaming, but it turned into like a gaming knitting group.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

Gaming and knitting?

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Gaming and knitting, yeah. Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 46:50

So Okay, what a mesh.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

Well, so one of well, so one of the ladies has like some sensory issues, and she's like, I like to watch people playing games, but I don't like to play them myself because they can make me upset or you know, I'm at risk of seizures or you know, what have you. And so what happens is my counselor aide and the one group member, they'll be in a game together and then they'll share through Discord. So the other group member who doesn't like to play but still wants to watch, she gets to watch, and then she's knitting. That's pretty awesome and then they're all talking together. So it's like cycle. That's yeah, it's turned into like a gaming knitting group. And I'm like, okay, send it. Let's do that. That is dope.

SPEAKER_03 47:28

That is awesome. No, that's I love that's what you everything you're talking about, is just awesome because you're just finding a way to kind of fit what people's needs are. Whatever somebody needs, we're gonna find a way to you know make it work. And I just that's to me the ultimate answer to therapy is that how can we work with each individual and find a way to whatever they need in their preferences, let's make it happen. Um I love that. And I love the I'm glad the groups are working great for it. I'm sure that'll just get bigger and bigger in growth. More than that. They are, it's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

It's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 47:54

That's super cool. No, that's super cool. And we all need something like that. I think we all need a lot more of that in this in this world, in this community, especially around here. Um we we need a lot more of that. Um that's that's awesome. I'm so glad to hear that you're doing that. And I I respect the heck out of what you're doing. And uh thank you for what you're doing. And thank you. I'm sure there's a lot of people that have obviously you've talked about that have had a lot of help in from what you've done. So thank you for getting people in the door that normally wouldn't. So I think that's the really the key message here that you've really kind of bridged the gap between um how to get people there that normally wouldn't be. So thank you for doing that. That's huge. And hopefully a lot of people see that and continue to do that. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

We're having fun. That's right, you're having fun.

SPEAKER_03 48:31

Gotta do both, right? You can't make it boring, right? You can't make it boring.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

And the cool thing about I think something maybe a lot of people know this, I don't know. But with individual therapy, your therapist has to be licensed in the state that you live in. So I'm licensed in Maryland and Delaware.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

And so I can do individual therapy with people in Maryland and Delaware. But with the support groups, the part of the reason that we're not doing insurance is because it's global. So it's not just Maryland and Delaware, and that's helping me reach more people as well. I think next week I'm doing a consultation with somebody in Texas. Oh, that's awesome. It's virtual, right?

SPEAKER_03 49:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

I think I have another one scheduled for Florida. So just trying. I'm trying.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

That's awesome. I'm trying. No, that's all you can do. That's awesome. I respect that guy. That's awesome. That's awesome. Just keep doing what you're doing and keep helping more people, and that's all we can do. And uh, thank you so much. Thank you. And thank you again for taking the drive and uh taking the time out of your day to coming on. It was an absolute pleasure to get to meet you. And Game Talk Therapy. Make sure you check them out. Check out the website. Uh, absolutely. She said it's what'd you tell them to do? What did you say to comment? What was a joke that you made? You made some joke about the website. I can't remember. It was hilarious. You said something funny. Yeah, that's right. That's what it was.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

I'd love to know. It's just me, okay? It's just me. I manage it all. I'm trying my best. If it sucks, I'd love to dust.

SPEAKER_03 49:48

Oh, that's right. Somebody's gonna like it. That's all that matters. That's all that matters. But uh, thank you so much again. And uh, as we always say, EOLE, everybody love everybody, and let's try to do our part and make this work. I love it. No, wait, this is the new way that's it. Oh, the new Oh, okay. I didn't even know that. Fair enough. I I love that. I didn't know that. Yeah, the more you know. That's right, that's right. But uh Eoli, everybody love everybody, and let's try to do our part, make this world a better place, spread love, kindness, and forgiveness. We need a lot more in this world. So hopefully we're doing our part over here and hopefully influence others at home that want to do that as well. And um, this is season two, episode number fifty with Nicole. Thank you again for taking the time out of your day, and go check out her website. And uh, if you need some help and want a video game out, have some fun while you're doing it, hit her up. Uh go check her website out below. But other than that, we'll see you again soon. And this is the Who's Even Listening Podcast on the Mental Medicine Channel signing off.